2011-05-04 [nehirwen]: It's better to promote this when there is an actual proper shiny leaflet, don't ya think. :)

2011-05-04 [hanhepi]: you might want to change all of the "there"s to "their", since that's the right one in that context. also, pretty sure "whenever" is one word. the colors look good together by the way.

2011-05-04 [Sagacious Turkey]: That description sounds a little strange and suspicious.

2011-05-05 [Mystin]: I didn't know you were a spelling genius and I see nothing wrong with her description. >.<

2011-05-05 [Paul Doyle]: Now that's one site that should have been permanently put out of its misery and shut down, long ago. If you can somehow revive that place and make it a vibrant place people actually WANT to be on, then you'll have me in awe. To be quite frank, that place needs to be started over from scratch because it went from being a fun place with potential to a boring/dead place, to becoming a stinking-ugly and utterly repellent place for anyone to be on. But even if a miracle does happen, I'll not resume my former roles there. I have long since moved on. Again, if you can pull a miracle I will eat my words in public.

2011-05-05 [kians mummy]: [Sagacious Turkey] - note i have told you to stop talking on my wikis [Mystin] was a witness to this and you was also told my a guard so please leave my wikis

thanks

---

[Paul Doyle]

thats what i amn trying to do, revive it, and give it a fresh start, but i need the power to do so, but i will probably never get it lol,

---

[Mystin] thanks hun

2011-05-05 [Mystin]: I wish you the best of luck in everything you do! ^_^

2011-05-05 [hanhepi]: well, technically [Mystin] "there" is spelled right, but it is the wrong one for the context. "submit their art" etc. would be the right "their" for the job there. the ones that are in it, they're wrong. http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000256.htm explains how all 3 are used. :P

2011-05-05 [kians mummy]: ok

2011-05-05 [Alexi Ice]: We talked about starting it from scratch long ago...

2011-05-05 [kians mummy]: But it still hasn't happened yet.

2011-05-05 [nehirwen]: We actually had a huge revamp last year.

2011-05-05 [kians mummy]: Well it didn't work lol.

2011-05-05 [nehirwen]: You don't know, but it was a mess before. It's definitely an improvement. <.<

2011-05-05 [kians mummy]: Yes it may be an improvement, but hasn't brought any new members to join.

2011-05-05 [hanhepi]: my kids are alllllmost good enough at typing to join, but they'd only boost traffic once a week for 30 minutes.

2011-05-06 [Lothuriel]: I will be honest. I stalk a lot of wikis. I usually don't comment but, for this one I could not keep quiet. Elf12 started out as a wonderful idea of [Lerune]'s. At first my daughter LOVED it. There were some things that happened on that sight that I am not sure if I should mention but, I will say that I will not allow my children back on that site unless there are some serious changes in power and programming.  

2011-05-06 [Susie-Q]: I like the concept and admire what (i believe) you're tryinf to accomplish. But are there really that many children who are familiar with elftown to join the page? I hope it all goes well and you have my support.

2011-05-06 [Alexi Ice]: The problem is that children are more into social networking sites now-a-days. We did do a fairly large re-vamping though. And there has been a shift in power, Loth ^^ but I'm not 100 % sure I know what you are referring too...

Also, as a note, IDK if it is different where you are but here in America it's kind of frowned upon to give children leaflet's to websites...

2011-05-06 [Lothuriel]: I had a poster in my office at work for both Elftown and Elf 12. Clients (mostly celebrities) would inquire about them but, apparently none of them ever joined :[

2011-05-06 [nehirwen]: Indeed, the frowned upon part is mainly the reason we didn't make leaflets when we thought about it before.

Too bad they didn't join Loth! :(

2011-05-06 [kians mummy]: [hanhepi] thats better than nothing

[Lothuriel] then keep trying, you go to the people

2011-05-06 [Paul Doyle]: While I was on the Elf12 staff I made several mentions about leaflets, bulletin board postings and so on, but was shot down seemingly out of spite, more than anything else, and the issue was not explored again. Somewhere, I still have a copy of a sample real-life bulletin board posting that I scanned and linked on the Elf12 crew forum, but complied and kept the sample to myself when it was rejected. The brainstorming session I hoped to generate (to hopefully come up with a workable solution that did not jeopardize the safety of the children and their parents, but nevertheless publicized Elf12 in a major way)never happened. It was around that time when I realized Elf12 was becoming a toxic place to be, and I gradually stopped wasting time and energy there. Though I scrambled my account (and my son's account, for similar concerns to [Lothuriel]) I can still peer in from the outside from time to time, and can't help but laugh at a few things. The latest contest is from April 2010, and many of the pages that really ought to be visible from the outside, are not. And then there all of those questionable, sometime inappropriate "revenue-generating" ads. But most telling of all, the current Grand Mog's status is exactly the same as it was when I left. It reads: "(doesn't want to do official work stuff today. :P)"

This is more than a year now! What's going on there? (Not that I really care, mind you, but it kind of goes without saying that a leaderless site is doomed to fail.)

Anyway, if anyone's interested (not likely) I'll find the DIY advertising idea that got was shot down, seemingly along with the very idea of advertising to outsiders, period.

2011-05-06 [kians mummy]: [Paul Doyle] thanks, and yes i would like to see it, as we need lots of ideas

2011-05-06 [Paul Doyle]: Let's find out who's going to be running the Elf12 show (if anyone). Then I might consider looking for the simple advertisement idea. If there's going to be any more venom and spite, I won't bother looking at all. Unless all my Elf12 crew forum posts were deleted when [Artsieladie] kicked me off,the post will still be there on the crew forum.

2011-05-06 [kians mummy]: ok, lol, i wouldn't mind running it, but that won't happen, and i will take a look when possible, i'm trying to find someone to proof read my story

2011-05-06 [Lothuriel]: Keep trying? Um, no thank you. I do not trust the security on that site for my children or anyone else's at this point. If those in charge can convince me the problem is fixed, I would be more than happy to start contributing there again. 

2011-05-06 [kians mummy]: What seems to be the problem with security, We would like your advise?

2011-05-07 [Ihsahn]: I'm going to hold my tongue on that one.

2011-05-07 [Alexi Ice]: You can find the Elf12 crew on here. I'm a crew member, for one.

2011-05-07 [Lothuriel]: I am not a programmer so, unfortunately I have no advice to give. I would also like to point out that my issues stem from NONE of the staff there.

2011-05-07 [kians mummy]: ok, [Alexi Ice], what crew do we have on here then that are on elf 12 ;)

2011-05-07 [Alexi Ice]: If you look at the list of crew on Elf12, you can find all the same names here ^^

2011-05-08 [Linderel]: I don't really have an interest in Elf12. :) I'm not convinced that Finnish children would pay attention to leaflets advertising an international Internet community. Yes, the use of computers is high, but I believe their focus is elsewhere.

If you would be interested in a bit of constructive criticism, however, I would like to point out that you have mistyped "their" as "there" throughout the leaflet. Incorrect grammar in advertising for children does not set the best possible example.

2011-05-08 [Linderel]: Oh, the "there" vs "their" issue has already been pointed out. Sorry for being redundant. :P

2011-05-08 [Ghost the Hybrid]: most kids around where i live don't know english that well till they're about 15

2011-05-08 [kians mummy]: very true

2011-05-08 [Ghost the Hybrid]: and well when you're 15 you can join elftown so i'm not sure if it's a good idea to do that here

2011-05-08 [kians mummy]: hmmmmmmmm, its not for here though [Linderel] i'm getting help from one of the council any way

2011-05-08 [Linderel]: Que? You invited me to this wiki page. I assumed that any comments and feedback would be appreciated. This has nothing to do with my status on Elftown; I am merely responding to the invitation.

2011-05-08 [kians mummy]: calm down, i wasn't having a go X)

2011-05-08 [Linderel]: I don't need to calm down. :P Anyway, reading the comments again, I think you might have confused [Ghost the Hybrid]'s last statement for something I said. Your comment wouldn't really make sense as a response to mine. :P

2011-05-08 [hanhepi]: I would like to point out that As A Parent, i wouldn't allow my kids access to a website that didn't know the difference between "their" and "there". 

2011-05-08 [kians mummy]: there is no need for your attitude

2011-05-08 [hanhepi]: not trying to be attitudinal, just stating the facts.

2011-05-08 [LadyAmbellina]: I would love to take part but I don't have any kids! lol

2011-05-08 [AuroraLumos]: I never understood the point of elf12 myself, when I was 12 (actually up until I was 14 or 15) my internet usage was limited to half an hour per week and I usually went on neopets (:3 neopets ftw haha) or some other game site. My sister introduced me to elftown (so long ago infact that I forgot my previous username/password XD)
Ok so the introduction of broadband has changed how much people use the internet etc etc (no more phone line cloggage :D) but social networking for young people? No go area imho. Go outside and play kids, go outside and play while people still find it sweet that you play tag and hide and seek (as adults my friends and I get funny looks :/)

2011-05-08 [Akayume]: I'm not sure of what happened Loth, but if it isn't a safe place I'm not sure it's good to advertise it yet.

And yes, here in the USA if you had out leaflets to small children you are a pedo. >.>

I think leaflets at this point will not work. :/ Especially because it'd be easier to get it off its feet by advertising on the interwebs, and not by handing out leaflets.

ALSO!... Reduce your use! :O They be killin' trees out there.... ;____;

2011-05-08 [Alexi Ice]: Agreed, Aka! Poor trees! >.<

2011-05-08 [Akayume]: I know. :( Is so sad.

2011-05-09 [kians mummy]: [LadyAmbellina] we don't need kids, we can be on there as well, as there is a kids wiki where they chat by themselfs, kid to kid

2011-05-09 [Lothuriel]: That is another issue I had with E12. There are more adults than children. That alone sort of creeps me out a little.

2011-05-09 [Akayume]: Yeah. :( I feel weird going there...

2011-05-09 [Lothuriel]: I didn't mind so much when my children were there. I mostly logged on only to post things for them and add free graphics and coloring pages. 

2011-05-09 [Akayume]: Yesh, but I am childless. XD So I feel weird being there.

2011-05-09 [Alexi Ice]: I'm on the council so I don't really feel weird. But it is supposed to be a children's site. NOT an adults site. That's what Elftown is for.

2011-05-09 [Paul Doyle]: I had a major issue with teenagers and adults who were there neither to help the site nor to keep an eye on siblings/children who were on the site. Since my son outgrew the site a long time ago (though he is currently only 11) I couldn't imagine being on the crew again since I have no other children. The nearly complete absence of under-12 children creeped me out a little, too, just as much as all of these trashy/chav types who had no business whatsoever being on a site where they could be seen as a threat by us parents. 

2011-05-09 [Lothuriel]: I could not have said it better myself Paul

2011-05-09 [Alexi Ice]: Yeah. Honestly I think the revamp was the best idea. Reviving that place in this day and age is a bit of a pipe dream. Which is sad because I'm sure in it's golden age it was a wonderful place (maybe??)

2011-05-09 [Akayume]: It had a golden age? .___.'

2011-05-09 [Paul Doyle]: To quote Sigourney Weaver as Lt. Ellen Ripley: "I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."

2011-05-09 [Alexi Ice]: I don't know? LOL! HAHAHA, I was wondering if someone did

2011-05-09 [Paul Doyle]: Maybe a 10-karat gold-plated age? Honestly, the site never recovered after [Lerune] left during the "formative age".

2011-05-09 [Alexi Ice]: Close enough. Lol!

2011-05-09 [sequeena_rae]: Sorry, my child isn't even born yet x)

2011-05-09 [Akayume]: And when they are... They prolly still won't go on the site. :P

2011-05-09 [Alexi Ice]: *Dies laughing* *high five, Aka*

2011-05-09 [Akayume]: :D Thank you, thank you *bows*

2011-05-11 [Paul Doyle]: No offense, but as a parent I wouldn't want Elf12 run by someone who makes public ET wikis with names like i like to be naked. If you eventually want to run a kid's site you have to distance yourself as humanly possibly from that Elfpack/Fake type of stuff that strikes mortal fear into the hearts of soccer moms and even those of us parents who don't confuse true artistic nudity with porn. Anyway, that's all I have to say.

2011-05-11 [Alexi Ice]: *Lol*

2011-05-11 [Lothuriel]: I so wish Elftown had a like x infinity button.

2011-05-12 [Susie-Q]: [Paul Doyle] it's a fair point. And understandable from a parents perspective.

2011-05-13 [Nite_Owl]: Um I think someone should do a grammar check on the flyer. "There" should be "their."

2011-05-13 [AuroraLumos]: That's been pointed out but it's still a good point :)

2011-05-23 [Sunrose]: The actual images posted through i like to be naked are password protected, so the images aren't publically posted. I can't see them, so I can't judge them. There can be a fine line between both, but I don't think either belong on Elf12 so it's really irrelevant.
Just because someone likes porn though, doesn't make them a paedophile. Most of the parents who have spoken up here are or have been member of wiki's on Elftown that are pornish or very close to it. The drama lama's are probably more of a threat.

Then, I don't think it's right to dismiss something over a mistake in grammar. We're not that perfect either. Especially since at least one of the people here has a habit of making similar mistakes :P

Obviously if no one puts effort in, the site won't show any new activities like contests. That can't really be held against the people who want to try and revive it now.

That being said I wouldn't want my kids there. They'd be too young and they'd not be able to communicate (English would not be their mother tongue). Right now there'd be no one to communicate with.
And running a site is quite challenging, I don't know if you can do it. I'm more inclined to say you can't, but I've been proven wrong before :)

2011-05-24 [AuroraLumos]: True it's not right to dismiss something over a mistake in grammar, I didn't make the point myself originally.

I never really liked the idea of kids using social networking sites even if they are aimed at them. Sites like Neopets and other sorta game sites where you can trade and communicate with people but not actually know the face behind the name are great for building the whole idea that you CAN use the internet for talking to other people, but it doesn't run the risk of kids running off to go meet people they've met online etc. (I know that's worst case scenario but that's my over active paranoid brain shouting at me.)

That said, I think kids are trying to grow up too fast nowadays, they don't need the internet. It's a late teen onward tool, that just happens to have some fantastic distractions but it is still definitely a tool. (I've barely crossed the line from teenager to... not teenager and I sound like an old woman... HA oops) 

(Also on the other note I certainly wouldn't be able to run a site that's for sure.)

2011-05-24 [Sunrose]: My comment wasn't really directed at you, but I agree with your additions (apart from the siterunning, since I haven't really encountered you a lot before to judge that :P)..

2011-05-24 [AuroraLumos]: If I really put the effort in I probably could run a site, but I'm way to busy at the moment to put regular time into anything I'm not already doing so I'd be pretty useless ^^'

2011-05-24 [Sunrose]: Well, maybe all that is really required is programming skills to build the thing. Then leave the rest to people you appoint :P
I mean, isn't that what Hedda does? =p

2011-05-24 [Alexi Ice]: No Sunrose! We all know Hedda is being controlled by the all powerful Lilo!! Lol. You should know this by now.

2011-05-24 [Sunrose]: That doesn't change much about what I said; Lilo would still need him to program and he'd still appoint people to do the rest :P

2011-05-24 [Alexi Ice]: That's true ^^ I just like reminding people about Lilo! LOL ~

2011-05-24 [AuroraLumos]: Haha true, I can program so I've got that bit covered. If I ever get an idea for a site I might give it a go but right now all I can think about is this materials exam I have on Friday ^^'. (Hahaha got to love Lilo :D)

2011-05-24 [Sunrose]: Well, good luck on the exam then :P

2011-05-24 [AuroraLumos]: :) thanks

2011-05-25 [Alexi Ice]: Alright, if you have a behind-the-scenes animal controlling you I will def. support you if you make a website! Since I am, myself, controlled by my pup Loki.

Also! Good luck on the exam!!

2011-05-25 [AuroraLumos]: This time in ... 2 years maybe I'll have multiple tiny ponies controlling everything I do no doubt :3
Adorable ponies will be adorable (thanks a bunch for the luck, I'm pretty sure I'll need it)

2011-05-28 [Anvikit]: I think if you want a flier to be circulated it needs to be more informative and as professional (proper grammar) as possible, if you want this to be presented as a site for kids.

If I go to the website elf12 no where is there a way for me to sign up. It's very confusing.?

also as a parent there is there no way for me to check the content of the site before I let loose my children upon it. ?

Is it a monitored site? Meaning all images and content are reviewed before published to insure someone doesn't post inappropriate images or content?


Digging a bit more I just found a way to sign up.. and unfortunately the sign up page had a few troubling sections..
Private Information
Here you can put private information that you only want your friends to see. Like your address, phone number and passwords to your friends only pages.

and
Name
Your full real name if you want.

Also is there an age limit/range? the name ET12 makes me think of younger children, but the info page I stumbled upon says it's geared twards teenagers? Teens and children are way different in my mind

I think that the info page should be listed on the main page for parents to be able to read before they sign their kids up, most people might not be as used to et as I am and want to spend time/ think to go digging around to find info on this site.

Another troubling stumbling point I found was the use of copyrighted characters for the various role titles, this shows unprofessional in non-adherence to copywrite laws ..

and this little bit was confusing in the rules list:
G-4. The following types of images are not allowed anywhere on Elf12, not even private wiki-pages: Images that display extreme violence, images that show or promote self-mutilation, nude/partially nude/suggestive images with minors in them.
Non-pornographic artistic nudity is allowed, provided that the image(s) is on a view protected wiki-page. All artistic nudity, drawing or not, must be tasteful. Also, links to it are not to be displayed where the younger members can stumble on them. Any nude or almost nude pictures with minors in them found anywhere on site will result in a permanent banning from Elf12 at minimum.
Note: It's okay to show your baby laying on its stomach with its butt in the air, but it is not okay to show a nude of your five year old, for example.


I mean If I print this flyer and distribute it to my community and friends, then something unexpected happens.. ?

2011-05-28 [Lothuriel]: If you do choose to do this, I would suggest simply hanging the fliers on local bulletin boards. If you hand them out individually, you may be viewed as a creepy creeper.

2011-05-28 [Lothuriel]: No it is not a monitored site in that sense. There are guards and moderators just as they are here on Elftown. If a violation is found, it is taken care of. It would be impossible to have to approve every image uploaded before it is published.

I see no problem with the sharing of that personal information. What a child puts on a website is up to the parents and is not the responsibility of the E12 Crew. Besides, it would be better for them to put it there than in their house description or a public wiki for everyone to view.

Yes, E12 is for children under 13. It mentions that in the descriptions.

"think that the info page should be listed on the main page for parents to be able to read before they sign their kids up, most people might not be as used to et as I am and want to spend time/ think to go digging around to find info on this site." - This is a valid point. The information used to be there, I am not sure why it wsa removed.

"Another troubling stumbling point I found was the use of copyrighted characters for the various role titles, this shows unprofessional in non-adherence to copywrite laws .. " How is this unprofessional and how exactly does it not apply to copyright laws? The images are all fan art and the artists are not making a profit from them. 


And, I think the G4 rule is pretty self explanatory.

2011-05-28 [Anvikit]: I was confused by the age, because of this line from the What is Elf12:

"Welcome to Elf12! What is Elf12, you wonder? Elf12 is an internet community for like-minded teenagers to interact with one another in a positive and safe environment, watched by parents and governed by the Council and Guards."

As far as the nudity goes, I think when children are involved it would be better to just exclude all nudity artistic or tasteful or not, even if hidden.. that way there is less confusion, and no chance of abuse.. but that is my opinion.

This website allows children to sign up WITHOUT their parents permission.. if this is posted in a public place.. like say a library and a child signs up without informing their parents, then the parent may not be aware that their child has even posted this private information online. It is dangerous, especially to advocate including such information.. when really anyone can sign up, including internet predators.

If anything a warning upon signup not to share your real name address or any personal information on the internet would be a more responsible approach.

2011-05-28 [Lothuriel]: "This website allows children to sign up WITHOUT their parents permission.. if this is posted in a public place.. like say a library and a child signs up without informing their parents, then the parent may not be aware that their child has even posted this private information online. It is dangerous, especially to advocate including such information.. when really anyone can sign up, including internet predators. "

Yes, this is true. But you have to understand that it is the responsibility of the parent to know what their child is doing, not the crew of E12. 

There are several wikis and so forth on E12 about internet safety. 

"As far as the nudity goes, I think when children are involved it would be better to just exclude all nudity artistic or tasteful or not, even if hidden.. that way there is less confusion, and no chance of abuse.. but that is my opinion." - So you think a baby's butt is the same as porn? What of the children who are 12 to 13 who are studying art and draw pictures of the naked form? Schools in the US frown upon such things but in a lot of other countries it is a perfectly acceptable learning tool.

2011-05-29 [Anvikit]: Still if something were to happen it would fall back on the website.. legally.

I saw a clause in the rules saying:

"Please remember that as the owner of a wikipage, you are responsible for what is displayed on your page. If any legal or serious problems come from your page, they fall to you, not Elf12. If you are under the legal age to be tried for crimes, then your parents may be responsible for your actions."

This is not true at all. There is no terms of service to agree to upon signing up for the site, and even so if it is a minor signing up not an adult then they can not enter into a legal obligation. Is this page even mandatory to view before entering into ET12?

Yes I agree with parental monitoring, but not all parents always have a clue.. and if something happens to their child, legal action, if a parent so deems, can be taken on the website. That's why websites have TOS that you have to agree to, and no children are not able to enter into TOS obligations only their guardian is able to do so on their behalf.


I am saying that if you allow a loophole there can always be room for abuse. Sure it may seem harmless to you, but someone else may find it offensive.. it's just easier to leave it out. and as far as nudity in artwork, again on a website dealing with children especially potentially young children it is better to just leave it out.

I've taken my children to art galleries before with nude works before, but would I want them to take said pictures and show them off to all their friends and their friends parents out of context? Probably not. (It's always the nudes that garner the kids attention the most too because of it's taboo nature)

So if a child finds an artistic nude on the site, then shows all their friends this site with the nude drawings on it.. is that how you want the site to be reflected? and then a parent finds out and learns that this site is geared twards kids, especially younger kids? You do not see where a problem could arise?

In this digital age, some children have computers in their own rooms and are allowed online without the watchful eye of their parents standing over their shoulder every minute.. but if the parents suddenly find something wrong then it's the website's fault, not the parents lack of supervision in their mind for presenting such material in a manner geared twards minors.

2011-06-24 [Stephen]: Jeeze, I wouldn't have even known this page existed if not for Alexi's posting on the Elf12 forums. /=

I'm going to mention it in the Elf12 Council forums, but I feel at this point we'd be better off scrapping Elf12 and instead just making some private-forum only pages on Elftown for kids, if we really want to keep up the safe pages for kids idea. Elf12 really would only interest Elftown's parents, and they'd more than likely feel much better about it with their kids on the same site. Elftown is also more managed, with a more experienced and known crew. We've re-vamped and restaffed Elf12 over and over and it just fell through every time.


Oh, also, [Anvikit] has a really good point in her previous comment.

2011-06-24 [Alexi Ice]: Agreed. I just don't have the time to commit to that site like I used to, considering even my favorite member (Lav cat) is gone now. I will miss it, I really put a lot of work into that sight but...it's just...it had a good run.

2011-06-24 [windowframe]: just making some private-forum only pages on Elftown for kids,
I like this idea.

2011-06-24 [Akayume]: I do too. (:

2011-06-24 [nehirwen]: I like that too. :)

2011-06-24 [Alexi Ice]: That's because Simpet is awesome <3

2011-06-24 [Stephen]: =D

2011-06-24 [Stephen]: Well, as I said, I mentioned it in the Elf12 Crew forums, but I actually would like something along those lines. Just make Elf12 the "main" page, which will allow free viewing so people can know what it is, and then all the subpages where the younger members can mingle, would be forum-guarded. Besides, to be honest, I feel as though being around on Elf12 is pretty much a waste of effort now, and I'd rather put the time I'm around being productive to a location where the work will have some benefit. ^^

2011-06-24 [Lord Josmar]: Im totally up for it! Just let me know when and where and I will try to help out to the best of my abilities.

2011-06-25 [Artsieladie]: ;_;

2011-06-29 [Stephen]: So, I've set up a forum for interested parties to discuss this. If you're interested, please PM me. :D